Why do I keep doing this? *invokes Blackheart icon*

[seiberwing]

So I met a Christian today. Yeah, yeah, big surprise, it's the South. But she was nice and softspoken and had a bit of a mustache, and even when she randomly popped out with "Do you believe in God?" I didn't really have the sense to get the hell out of Dodge. For some reason, I have the inability to just walk out of this sort of situation before it starts.

Now insert an hour and a half of religious conversation, with the predictable end result. I'm over on my side of the table tossing out logical arguements on how her god despite her constant claims that he was all loving and merciful and just wanted us to see things his way was coming off as a colossal jerk and sniffling ever so slightly because I do that when I get emotionally passionate about something, and she's over there going on about fluffy love stuff and never actually getting around to answering the holes I'm poking in her arguements.

I can never get a good answer as to where the concept of Hell even existing at all fits into the idea of eternal love and grace and mercy and bah. Every time I have this discussion with someone it only pokes me farther in the direction of favoring the guy with the balls to spit in his face and damn the consequences (literally). And I'm guessing that was not really her objective.

Eventually I gave her my number in case she wanted to meet up again sometime and we parted ways with, oddly, this final bit of discussion. No clue where it popped out of.

"I just thought of something else Jesus said. 'Blessed are ye who mourn, for ye will be comforted.'"
"I don't mourn."

Well, I don't.

Comments

[ravynfyre.livejournal.com]

I used to get into these discussions with people before. Poking holes in their faith, deriding their beliefs as Not Mine.

And then, one day it hit me... I didn't have anything to prove. Suddenly it was Okay to not believe what I believe, and I was no longer compelled by a pathological need to remain and defend something that, by it's very nature, should need no defense. Either you believe what you believe, or you don't, and that's fine.

I'm content to live and let live and let faith lie where it will.

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

Hey, she started it. Didn't force her into talking about anything.

I just wonder if it's really healthy for me to do so. Always leaves me so weary.

[ravynfyre.livejournal.com]

Did she force you to stay and talk? Or did you have the option to walk away and be content that faith and religion are many splendored things?

Perhaps it's just the way I look at the world, and perhaps your particular brand of religion works differently upon your soul than mine does me, however... I've always felt that faith should uplift you, not weary you. If debating the trappings of religion taxes one so, then perhaps it's time to re-evaluate just why one feels compelled to dive into that conflict in the first place.

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

I had the option to walk away, I just...didn't.

And on further reflection I think you might have a point there. I don't even know why I keep fighting so much to prove my own points.

Genuine Christian Popping By

[beckyh2112.livejournal.com]

Hell is a punishment for the fallen angels who rebelled against God. It was never meant to be used on humans, but God eventually found humans to be so wicked that He felt it was necessary. In much the same way, He found Sodom and Gomorrah so wicked that he destroyed them utterly. The Old Testament God was big on wiping people out root and branch who pissed Him off.

A lot of people forget that the Christian God is not only a merciful, loving god, but a stern, demanding God. He is just as well as merciful. It is justice, by His standards, to punish those who fall away from His commandments.

God's love and mercy came in when He sent His only begotten son to be sacrificed as atonement for the sins of the world. Because Jesus was sinless, He was able to provide the blood sacrifice that God needed in order to forgive those who had not fulfilled His commandments.

Re: Genuine Christian Popping By

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

I'm still having trouble with fitting the whole merciful loving thing in there. So why did he need to send down Jesus instead of doing the handwavy thing and forgiving people?

Also, for the angels? I don't think eternity is a fair punishment for anyone.

Re: Genuine Christian Popping By

[beckyh2112.livejournal.com]

So why did he need to send down Jesus instead of doing the handwavy thing and forgiving people?

As mentioned, God is a just god. People have to actually show repentance for Him to forgive them. Thus, in the Old Testament, he had people doing blood sacrifices of animals to ask for forgiveness.

Apparently, He had a change of heart later on, and sent His son as a final blood sacrifice, the last one that ever need be made.

Re: Genuine Christian Popping By

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

You're not answering the question. Why a sacrifice? Who told him to do that?

Re: Genuine Christian Popping By

[beckyh2112.livejournal.com]

Please read what Ravyn has said. (http://seiberwing.livejournal.com/99478.html?thread=1645974#t1645974) I don't really feel the need to repeat the same answer over and over.

Re: Genuine Christian Popping By

[ravynfyre.livejournal.com]

Why should God "handwavy"? Why should God just toss an ungrateful people a massively important and generous boon without requiring some sort of sacrifice, some sort of promise of committment? It's like a mother wandering through a store and just giving her child anything they want because they screamed loud enough. Why shouldn't God ask for something in return to prove to Him that we/they won't just piss on His gift and take it for granted?

Part of being merciful and loving is ensuring that His children are actually learning and growing. Not just giving them what they think they want/need... but giving them what they really do need. And sometimes? Sometimes a child does need a good spanking. To allow a child to continue to act up without any sense of consequence is neither merciful nor loving.

As for the eternal punishment... Do a little reading. You might find that not all Christians, or even sects of Christianity, even believe in "eternal punishment".

Re: Genuine Christian Popping By

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

I'm just saying, if I'm going to be handing out candy and for some reason some people don't want my delicious treats, they're welcome to walk away. I'm not going to chase them down and beat them with a stick for it.

Exactly what does God have that I should want, anyway? And eternal happiness in the afterlife doesn't count, because I'm pretty sure most of my friends wouldn't be there and that wouldn't be happy.

As for the eternal punishment... Do a little reading. You might find that not all Christians, or even sects of Christianity, even believe in "eternal punishment".

The one I was talking to today did, though. M'not talking about anyone in general.

IMO

[florentinescot.livejournal.com]

God doesn't *send* folks "to hell" but He will let you go if that's what you want.

I don't believe that one has to belong to a specific denomination either. Meeting God at Heska Amuna made me dismiss many of the ideas that I'd been taught.

Re: IMO

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

Hey, that's my old synagogue. When'd you pop your head in there? *curious*

Re: IMO

[florentinescot.livejournal.com]

Your bat mizpah (did I spell that right?) I've wanted to go back. I'm not sure there's a synagogue here in town to visit.

Re: IMO

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

You were at my bat mitzvah? Cool. I didn't really remember a lot about it...minus falling asleep up on on the bimah in front of everyone, of course.

Re: IMO

[nightwind69.livejournal.com]

God doesn't *send* folks "to hell" but He will let you go if that's what you want.

Yup, that's my opinion, too. :)

To Seiber: What a lot of folks, Christian and otherwise, seem to misinterpret is exactly what hell is. Actually, there are conflicting reports, but what I think it really boils down to is that hell is simply eternal separation from God and, one assumes, from everyone else, without the possibility of redemption. I envision it as a sort of eternal sensory deprivation. For some folks, that's probably not really a bad thing, because it's merely a slightly more intense version of what they choose for themselves every single day here on Earth. Here on Earth, though, we at least have interaction with other people. In hell, there isn't that have that. Or much of anything else.

Whatever the case, though, it's certainly not something that God chooses for you or for anyone else. Every single person who "goes to hell" freely chooses to do so, just as every single person who goes to heaven freely chooses to do so. That's the side effect of us having free will. Sometimes we make good choices and reap the rewards of doing so. Often, we make really bad ones and then blame God when the consequences come back to hit us on the ass. Really, we have no one to blame but ourselves. Same thing applies when it comes to one's afterlife destination. :)

All this punishment and reward nonsense is just man's (mostly medieval Catholicism's) ideas about things. People who buy into it like the idea of "bad people" (meaning, people not them) going to hell and "good people" who do good things (meaning, themselves) going to heaven. It doesn't really work like that. There are no "bad people" and "good people." There are just people making free-will choices, each of us with as much capacity for good or evil as the person next to us, no matter what religion (or lack thereof) we practice. But people who think heaven and hell are simply punishment and reward are, I think, going to be surprised who is (and, more importantly, who isn't) in heaven when (or if!) they get there...

Re: IMO

[florentinescot.livejournal.com]

oooh. Very well put!

Re: IMO

[nightwind69.livejournal.com]

Thanks. :) It really is simple, isn't it? People just don't like take responsibility for the things that happen to them or for the decisions that they make.

Disclaimer here in general: I'm not wanting anyone to be offended here, apologies if I do so.

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

Whatever the case, though, it's certainly not something that God chooses for you or for anyone else. Every single person who "goes to hell" freely chooses to do so, just as every single person who goes to heaven freely chooses to do so. That's the side effect of us having free will. Sometimes we make good choices and reap the rewards of doing so. Often, we make really bad ones and then blame God when the consequences come back to hit us on the ass. Really, we have no one to blame but ourselves. Same thing applies when it comes to one's afterlife destination. :)

I've heard this one before, but as 'you choose to worship this God, therefore you do not go to hell', not as 'you choose not to go to hell period, no strings or eternal devotion needed'. I still don't find that fair.

I envision it as a sort of eternal sensory deprivation. .

I'm pretty sure people go insane from that sort of thing. Not fun.

All this punishment and reward nonsense is just man's (mostly medieval Catholicism's) ideas about things. People who buy into it like the idea of "bad people" (meaning, people not them) going to hell and "good people" who do good things (meaning, themselves) going to heaven.

I've noticed that. It's always seemed a little petty to me, really.

Re: Disclaimer here in general: I'm not wanting anyone to be offended here, apologies if I do so.

[nightwind69.livejournal.com]

I've heard this one before, but as 'you choose to worship this God, therefore you do not go to hell', not as 'you choose not to go to hell period, no strings or eternal devotion needed'. I still don't find that fair.

You know, opinions vary. I suppose it all comes down to what you're going to put your faith in. Some people believe that all paths of faith lead to God and/or redemption. (The whole, "Just believe in SOMETHING!" attitude.) I don't hold to that, really, because I choose to put my faith into someOne who had the balls to say what He was and who proved it. It has nothing to do with worship. I do not worship in the traditional sense. I do not go to church and, frankly, I don't even read the Bible regularly. (Although I have at least read the whole thing multiple times. :) ) I simply talk at God a lot (my version of "prayer"), and I have faith that Jesus was who He said He was and that He is truly the only way to enter into an eternal relationship with God. I don't understand everything and never will and am actually at a point where I don't need to understand. I just believe. Faith like a child, like they say. The essence of the Gospel message is simply this: You don't have to understand, you don't have to do anything, and you don't even have to be "good." You just have to believe, and God will do the rest. There's a reason why John 3:16 ("For God so loved the Earth that he sent his only Son, that ALL WHO BELIEVE ON HIM SHALL NOT PERISH BUT SHALL HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE." Emphasis mine, obviously.) is so popular. Because it really is that simple.

Sure, God's done some stuff that, to us, looks pretty nasty. He gave the Hebrews some hard rules to follow, and He had good reasons for doing all of it. I might not understand why He did so, really. But part of faith is trust; I have faith in Him, so I trust that He did what He did for very good reasons and that one day I'll understand them. As I said, for me where I am now, that's all I need. I understand that not everyone is in the same place I am, though. This is why the field of apologetics exists. If you're truly interested in this stuff, may I suggest this site? It will take you years to get through all the stuff he's written, and IMO it's all gold.

In short, I like the simplicity of Christianity, frankly. The freedom. It pisses me off to no end that many (if not most!) Christians make it all a lot harder than it really is.

Re: Disclaimer here in general: I'm not wanting anyone to be offended here, apologies if I do so.

[ravynfyre.livejournal.com]

I've heard this one before, but as 'you choose to worship this God, therefore you do not go to hell', not as 'you choose not to go to hell period, no strings or eternal devotion needed'.

That, as far as I have ever been concerned, is a conceit of Man. Mankind dreamed that bit of nonsense up to validate the sectioning of their religions. As far as pretty much most of my friends' religions are concerned, I'm definitely going to Hell, seeing as how I'm pagan.

Thing is, I talk to the gods all the time, and I listen to what They say. I'm pretty damned sure that when I die? I'm not getting cut out of their will, so to speak, so I'm golden. And some of those friends of mine who loudly profess to be this breed of Christian or that breed of Whatever who then turn around and break faith with God? I'm pretty sure they stopped listening to God a long time ago.

And if that's not Hell, Idunno what is.

Long and the short of it is... Live a good life. Doesn't matter whose name you do it in, or not. Evil done in the name of good is still evil; good done in the name of evil is still good. Live a good life, live with purpose, leave the world better than when it was given to you. The rest... with all the different flavors and brands all clamoring that they're "the One"? It's all just semantics to make us feel better in the wee cold dark hours of the night.

[dragoness-e.livejournal.com]

I love you all.

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

Ehwhat?

Re: Disclaimer here in general: I'm not wanting anyone to be offended here, apologies if I do so

[navigatorsghost.livejournal.com]

Hello, love. Well, you already know where I stand on this - I spit on any religion that claims to be the One True Path, because I refuse to accept the screaming fucking INJUSTICE that would send, eg, everyone who died before zero AD into darkness along with everyone who never heard of Christ or who bravely refused to give up the faith of their fathers. Your eternal relationship with God, whatever he/she/it may be, CAN'T possibly rely on whether you picked up the right book or grew up in the right country or century. That's temporal, it's petty, it makes eternal salvation into a postcode lottery - and postcode lotteries are enough of a bitch when you're talking about car insurance and NHS care. I refuse to hang eternity on one.

I'm not a "seeker" in the sense the people above are discussing - I've already found what I'm looking for, and I'm happy to spend the rest of my life exploring the depths and ramifications of it. I see myself not as a servant as such, but as a champion; I've dedicated myself to following Someone's path and Their commands, but I'm not a worm crawling on my belly begging to be forgiven. I'll tell you what I believe: there's no original sin, there's only the sins I commit in life, and what's committed in this world can be atoned for here as well, without any human or divine mediation. Me and my gods stand face to face... or more often, I walk this world and They stand at my shoulder. Black wings from horizon to horizon, starlight reborn on the tips of my fingers as I reach out to the night. That's my religion, that's my power, and I won't trade it for anyone's promise of eternal anything.

*breathes* ...yikes, sorry, I think I got a bit carried away at the end there. I'm not deleting it though.

Love you, though. Here as always if you need to talk to me.

Re: Disclaimer here in general: I'm not wanting anyone to be offended here, apologies if I d

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

*cuddles up to* Any chance you could get on IM tonight? I could really use someone to talk to who knows where they are in that.