(no subject)

[seiberwing]

Just...screw my creative writing teacher.

I made a teensy bit of criticism of one person's imagery piece, and he tells me that we're just supposed to offer our 'observations'.

"But I was just offering my observations that there was a contradiction there. The car had 'gone through hell and back' in one paragraph and 'had just a few dents' in another. There's no need to get on my case about that."

"We'll have a big talk after class."

Gah. He's a superior git, is what he is. He said that he'd be the only one giving crit for a long while (not that he seems to even be paying attention to what we do) because we 'are trying to foster a trusting enviroment' and 'we do not know enough about writing yet'. One girl in the class has written a damn novel, I think we know what we're doing.

And then, just when I think I'm over it, I come home to this (name removed to protect the innocent):

--I just wanted to get back to you one more time after our conversation this afternoon. After our talk, I went to the chair of Literature and Language and spoke to her about our exhange. She gave me her full support with this.

There is absolutely no room in this class for your rude remarks such as "There's no need to jump on my case about it" Or the last thing you said as you walked out the door which was, "When you talk to me, talk to me like a human being."

These are rude and immature remarks and there's absolutely no room in my class for this. Your attitude and your rude remarks interrupt and take energy away from the class. I don't have time for them.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough to you that I wanted exclusively positive comments from class members on each other's work. I will be willing to give you another chance as far as that's concerned. However, it is totally unacceptable for you to be saying that I talk down to you when I address you as I would any other student.

I am the teacher and as the teacher I set the rules and I expect them to be followed with respect and willingness. That's not to say I don't want student participation and response. The class is full of wonderful and thoughtful response, and I've seen that you are quite capable of that kind of response yourself.

So if you show up in my classroom next Wednesday, I expect you to be polite, thoughtful and attentive. To not respond to any critique I may have of your response to someone's work. I expect you to refrain from any "comebacks" or rude replies. If you are unable to meet those conditions, unable to practice such restraint, then I think, and the chair of the department said this as well, that it would be a very good idea for you to drop the class.

If you would just let me know that you received this.

Otherwise, I need no other response. If you show up in class, then I'll know you accept my conditions.


Bastard. I'm waiting a bit to respond, so I can calm down and not start crying again. How are we supposed to learn this way?

Edit: Well, I'm talking to my writer mom on the subject, to whom I sent a copy of this post. And she being the person who raised me, said: Seiber, he's got a point. He's the teacher and you were the one being an idiot here for talking back to him and being so rude. I'm wondering if I should try and go back so as not to get on anyone's bad side and still get creative writing class. It'll involve a lot of ass-kissing, but...

Son of Edit: I'm putting the issue on hold until tomorrow when I'm a little calmer. Now I honestly don't know what to do.

Comments

[raisedbymoogles.livejournal.com]

First instinct: Kill it with FIRE.

Second instinct: Send a letter to the department head explaining exactly why you're dropping the class. It may not do anything, but at least he/she will have both sides of the story. Other than that, this asspastry is not worth your time.

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

That's...actually not a bad idea at all. Hm.

Because he seems to be almost rubbing it in by going to the chair and telling him/her about it, almost saying 'yes, this girl's rude and idiotic and you should keep an eye out for her'. I'm almost too nervous to try and get into another writing class because of that.

[wingdance.livejournal.com]

I'm so sorry I never thought to warn you, but some teachers are just like that. And it's college, so they can do as they like. I have a friend whose teacher didn't like her because of one comment just like that, something that she meant in a neutral manner and the teacher took it negatively, and for the rest of the year, the teacher gave her lower grades for mistakes in her papers that simply didn't exist.

My advice is to either apologize a lot, or switch to a different class and attempt to never see that teacher again. It's unfair, I know, but it's just the way it is. At the best, you have the hostility of the teacher. At the worst, the teacher will give you lower grades just because he can and he doesn't like you. I'm serious about this, it's just not a good situation for you right now. I'm sorry you had to find out like this. Not all teachers are bastards.

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

I'm not apologizing to someone who treats his classroom like ff.net. Even if I wanted to, I know I'd try and critcize again and just get into trouble.

I don't know if I can get into another class, but I'm definitely switching.

[beckyh2112.livejournal.com]

You should definitely switch to another class, Seiberwing. That's not the sort of class that can be helpful for you as a writer.

But also? In the future, be careful about word-choice when talking to a professor. Be as utterly polite to them as you can when you disagree with them; don't give them a reason to think badly of you if you can help it.

re

[dunmurderin.livejournal.com]

Agreed, with both points.

Dun.

[starchildorion.livejournal.com]

What the fuck. That is bullshit.

I'd talk to the chair myself if I were in your position. Who knows how the professor sugarcoated their side of the story.

[monoshiri.livejournal.com]

The fuck.

I haven't been talked to like this by a teacher since I was *eleven*. This person obviously has some kind of god complex and likes smacking you down because he's in charge. He's an idiot, and the chair is an idiot for supporting him. The fact that he does not allow the other students to give what you basically described as very mild constructive criticism to their peers is beyond fucking stupid.

My mother, who's a college professor and teaches scriptwriting, was gobsmacked when I described your teacher's behaviour. She says that you can't just build an environment of positive fluffies in a creative writing class, there *has* to be constructive crit from the students because they are in many ways more each other's audience than the teacher. She also was not impressed with the idea of your teacher not paying enough attention when you guys were presenting your writing.

I suggest you get the heck out of his class if you humanly can, write a long and pointed letter to your dean/student advisor/whoever will listen that he is a weak teacher who is threatened easily by a student who stands up for herself and politely gives her independent opinion.

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

I'm rather on the fence about the issue now that I've talked with my mom. *points to edit* The thing is, I was the one who started it and they are his rules.

I honestly don't know what to do.

[florentinescot.livejournal.com]

You might see if the university has an official ombudsman. I had a similar experience as an undergraduate. :-( The ombudsman can be beneficial in cases like this -- to mediate -- between you and the professor or between you and the department head. Is it the only Creative Writing prof in the department? Do you have an advisor assigned to you? At the very least, I think I'd talk to them. I'm trying to think of who else that you might be able to talk to -- Dean of Students maybe? If that's the way it's going to run the class ... I don't think I could stay.

Good Luck

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

Mom says that's not a good idea for this.

[goldcelestial.livejournal.com]

just go, say you "love" every piece, and form a separate writing group from the real writers in the class who want some true feedback.

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

Didn't think of that either.

[goldcelestial.livejournal.com]

listen to the moogle, if you're going to write the department head.
and, find out if this is a guy with tenure if you can.
if he doesn't, this may affect his position, if enough students come forward with complaints or something like that.
good luck<3

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

The rest of the class is sort of apathetic. I don't think making a grand statement will help me here.

[demon4sama.livejournal.com]

ummm...id say fuck em and then go on your merry way you have/are paying so its up to you and tho we can give advice you need to make the final decision

[viragostonewall.livejournal.com]

*huggles muchly* To be honest, I think you both screwed up. I can't say you did anything wrong, because I probably would have done the same in your position. Still, the 'teacher' reminds me of a certain teacher I had in fifth grade whose face I still want to rearrainge. He needs to understand the difference in constructive and destructive critisism. He seems to be good at the latter, and unable to recognize the former.

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

Who'd you have? Byas? (Now that's an ironic name if I ever heard one).

[pieve.livejournal.com]

If I may pose a question can I ask Did the Prof. state in his out lining of the class room rules that he was the only one to give critice at first? If not then yes go to the department head and state your side. I mean the worse that can happen is your blown off or ignored. I dont quite agreen with the ass kissing though but thats just me for what its worth I hope this helps.

<3 you

[goldcelestial.livejournal.com]

considering she might want to possibly do more than a couple classes in the dept, i wouldn't suggest that..... they could blacklist her instead

[revelininsanity.livejournal.com]

Sometimes the problem with teachers is a simple matter of a personality difference. This guy sounds like an asshole, though, and unworthy of respect. DO you really want to take a class with such a man?

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

*throws up hands* No idea right now.

[stace-s.livejournal.com]

Man, if asses wore hats he'd be a 10 gallon. 0_o

But yes, college teachers have more freedom in their idiocy than highschool ones. I got an F on a paper because he disagreed with my opinion. His exact words were, "no one is this day and age believes that anymore. This is a paper based entirely upon religious beliefs!" When there were absolutely no mentions of religion in the entire thing. =/ So I feel you man.

Sersiouly though, go on ratemyprofessor.com and warn other unsuspecting victims about the bastard.

[koilungfish.livejournal.com]

Dude, spot the guy with his head up his doctorate ... ::skritchies:: I have nothing helpful to say, I'm afraid, so I will just go ::hug!::

[sosogomi.livejournal.com]

Bastard!

*huggles*

[mommimus-prime.livejournal.com]

This isn't creative writing, it's self-esteem building. Geez, what a load of crap. How can someone learn to write if all they are allowed to give is positive comments? Get out of that class and find a teacher who isn't caught up in the "let's all be kind to each other so we can all sit around a smile and be happy and have lots of self-esteem" kind of pc nonsense.

To be honest, despite my degree in creative writing, I've learned more from books than from any of my creative writing professors.

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

The method is bull, but I think the one thing the class *will* do for me is make me write more.

At the moment, I'm leaning towards apology and keeping my mouth shut for the rest of the semester. At least it'll get off the bad list of the department chair.

[dragoness-e.livejournal.com]

Hmm... Not having witnessed the exchanges in question, I can't come down on one side or the other. What appears perfectly reasonable to you may have come off as "smart-mouthed kid" to him, and he may believe his response to you to be reasonable and polite.

Always be impeccably well-mannered in your bearing and tone and choice of words when confronting a superior, unless you are ready to walk out the door and set fire to it behind you. Frame things in a non-challenging manner; you want the person to weigh your complaint on its own merits, and not already have his back up because of your attitude. If you can master the art of telling your boss/teacher/etc he's wrong without pissing him off, you have learned a very useful lesson.

And yes, there are some crappy profs you just have to learn their prejudices and cater shamelessly to them, then don't take them ever again if you can help it. Choose the hill you want to die on--if you want this class bad enough, suck it up and give him his fluffy comments.

If you realize that what you said might have been considered rude, though you did not intend it, say so when you apologize. If you knew you were rude and were rude because you were angry, mention that when you apologize. Politely explain what upset you, if this guy is at all reasonable. If you have trouble sincerely apologizing because you don't think you did anything wrong, with most reasonable people, it helps to calmly explain that and ask just what you did or said that was offensive? Calmness, honesty, and sincere regret if you really did hurt feelings/disrespect the man help a lot in situations like this.

On the other hand... For your own long-term self-respect, don't let yourself be pushed around on fundamental values. There will come times when you have to put your foot down to keep from being taken advantage of. Don't be afraid to do it when it's necessary; the stress of giving in to and living with what you think is wrong to avoid confrontation and discord is, to me, worse than the confrontation would be.

As always, this advice is probably worth what you paid for it.

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

And yes, there are some crappy profs you just have to learn their prejudices and cater shamelessly to them, then don't take them ever again if you can help it. Choose the hill you want to die on--if you want this class bad enough, suck it up and give him his fluffy comments.

S'what I did. I just hope I didn't get myself too much on his bad side to screw up the rest of the semester.

[ravenclaw-devi.livejournal.com]

What. An. Arse.

[whitedove01s]

That reminds me of a free 'career orientation' class I took which was meant to help low-income people learn to write resumes, get better jobs, etc. It actually turned out, in practice, to be a way for some over-hairsprayed bint to inflate her ego by treating everyone else in the class like complete idiots and taught absolutely nothing useful.

My participation ended when I called her a bitch to her face and walked out, despite being a good 50 miles from home at that point and having no transportation back.

So far, you've minded your manners far better than I do when I hit my breaking point.

Still, I'd consider very carefully how much you really need this class in order to graduate or get whatever degree your working towards. Because at this point, you'd only be taking it for the little credit tick on the paperwork - you will learn absolutely nothing of use from this person.

[ravenology.livejournal.com]

Oh, for the love of Jack-fucking-Daniels...

I have a lack of tolerance for this breed of stupidity in a human being, and to put it extreeeemly mildly your prof needs to get a grip. I mean, what the hell is all this?! He can't seriously mean to keep up the "positive criticism only" thing for the the whole time, right? Maybe the positive criticism will only last briefly to build up students' confidence before he then starts to allow more constuctive criticism. Because if there's no constructive criticism AT ALL and only positive sugarcoated fluff, then there's no way anyone's gonna learn a goddamn thing about writing because nobody's telling them where they're going wrong. They can get all the happy, fluffy, cooing, confidence-building comments they like but people, it's not going to make them any better a writer. They won't make any progress and even it they're happy as a clam for the rest of the semester, it still won't change the fact that they haven't learnt jackshit. Jesus, it's like Fanfiction.net in a classroom! It's insane!

Seiber, is this prof the only guy who teaches creative writing? Would it be possible to swap your current class for a different one with a better prof? If not, go to the Chair of Literature and Language and explain your side of the story. Hell, do that anyway. Because if they don't hear your side of the story they're gonna be judging you on the prof's description alone, and we can all see how neutral HIS view is. Even if you have to suck it up for now and only deliver the positive crit, as instructed, go back and see if the Chair is more open to talking after the dust has had a chance to settle. I can't get over how fucking unfair this is, and I really think it's bull if the Chair gets the wrong impression simply because they're not willing to listen to your side of the story. My computer science teacher at high school taught us all something unrelated to the course that's managed to stick with me ever since he said it: "You don't get a second chance to make a first impression." It's unfair that this asshole prof of yours has perhaps managed to paint an unrealistic portrait of you as a troublemaker to everyone else, and the earlier you can change any false perceptions the better. You don't want this to be dragging you down in the future, because it would be downright unfair.

Also, you might wanna think about friends-locking this entry. Because the last thing you need right now is someone finding out about your Livejournal and using it as another reason to chalk up a point against you. I know people who've lost their jobs because someone at their workplace found their weblog and forwarded it to the boss, even though the entry that their boss was firing them for was just a simple rant made ages ago about their workplace -- something they don't probably mean any more, but which they did ages ago when they actually typed it out.